PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: We briefly discussed homosexual behaviour earlier. Since it has arisen again in a different context, I'd like to understand more about it. We have been discussing homosexuality along with alcoholism, mental illness, and criminal behaviour. They were grouped together because all four classes of behaviour have been claimed to be due to inherited physiological factors, rather than being conditioned by the experiences of life. Virtually no one would disagree that alcoholism, mental illness, and criminal behaviour are harmful both to the individual and to society; but, some would not consider homosexuality to be harmful to either the individual or to society. Do you think it is really fair to group homosexuality with those other three types of behaviour?
TINNY: It is most fitting that homosexuality be grouped with alcoholism, mental illness, and criminal behaviour. It is only recently that the inclusion of homosexuality with those other behaviours would be questioned.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Does homosexual behaviour refer only to men engaging in sex acts with other men, or does it also include women who engage in sex acts with other women?
TINNY: The word homosexual has been often misunderstood. It refers to sex between partners of the same gender, although the term homosexual has more commonly been used to describe the sexual relationship between men. When I use the word, homosexual, I am referring to the condition of both men and women who engage in sexual behaviour with a partner of the same sex.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Since you include homosexual behaviour in a group which includes criminal behaviour, do you think homosexual behaviour should be considered a crime?
TINNY: Not at the beginning. There is much behaviour that is wrong which should not be considered criminal until society is well into its transformation into a society of goodness and right.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: You apparently don't think, though, that the right to be a homosexual should be guaranteed as an issue of civil rights.
TINNY: No, of course not. Only those qualities and behaviours of human beings which are in accord with natural law should be guaranteed as issues of civil rights.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: If homosexuals are not granted full civil rights that would mean they would be subject to some forms of discrimination.
TINNY: That is true, that is natural, and that is necessary. We must discriminate between that which is right and that which is wrong; there is no other way to achieve our grand destiny. Although I say homosexuality is not deserving of full acceptance, and may fairly and rightly be the subject of discrimination, it is important that any action taken in regard to homosexuality be only for the protection of society, and must never include any form of punishment or retribution toward the homosexual person.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Why is it that homosexuals cannot be given full acceptance and full rights?
TINNY: If homosexuals are fully accepted then the practice of homosexuality would be fully accepted. By giving full rights to homosexuals society would be acknowledging that there is nothing wrong with homosexual behaviour; but, if homosexuality is a wrong behaviour there must be natural consequences. One of the natural consequences of wrong behaviour is the refusal of society to accept that wrong behaviour. The acceptance of wrong behaviour acts as a reinforcer for wrong behaviour, and therefore results in an increase in that wrong behaviour.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Exactly which rights should be denied homosexuals?
TINNY: Homosexuals should be denied the opportunity to influence others to participate in homosexual acts, or to influence others to believe homosexual behaviour is right and desirable. No one has the right to influence others to think, speak, or act wrongly.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Is that the only right homosexuals should be denied?
TINNY: In the beginning yes. Removal of the opportunity to be a wrong influence has far reaching consequences. In all other ways homosexuals are deserving of the love, consideration, and respect due any person.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: I asked if homosexuality should be considered a crime and you said it should not. If homosexuality is not a crime is it a form of mental illness?
TINNY: Homosexuality is not a mental illness in the traditional meaning of the term; but, the broadest meaning of mental illness must include homosexuality just as it must include all wrong human behaviour. Homosexual behaviour is a mental illness in the same way violence is a mental illness. All wrong thoughts, words, and deeds are symptoms of our insane society. In the true meaning of mentally ill anyone who thinks, speaks, or acts in opposition to natural law would have to be considered mentally ill.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Under that broad definition of mental illness every person on the planet would have to be considered mentally ill.
TINNY: That's true, every person on this planet is mentally ill.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Even you?
TINNY: Yes, even me. I am not free from the pervasive influence of the old worldview. The wrong beliefs and influences from the past lead me to think, speak, and act wrongly at times.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: If every person in the world is mentally ill, to some degree, then it would seem no person should look down upon others as unworthy.
TINNY: The wrongness in thought, word, and deed of some is great, and in others small. No person shall overcome their wrongness, be it great or small, unless we all work together to bring sanity to the human race.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: We have given a lot of emphasis to homosexuality in our discussion. Does that indicate homosexuality is one of the major wrongs?
TINNY: Compared to the full range of wrong done in the world, homosexuality seems to be a relatively mild wrong. The emphasis on homosexuality was not due to the nature of the behaviour itself, but was due to the fact that homosexuality served well as a complex example of wrong influences which result in the conditioning of behaviour in opposition to natural law. There are aspects of present society, which are widely accepted, that are of greater harm than homosexuality.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Since we have come upon an effective example in homosexuality, let's further analyse the subject. Isn't it true that there are chemical balances in the human body which affect the expression of male and female physical characteristics?
TINNY: That is true.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Isn't it true that males have both the chemicals which result in male characteristics and the chemicals which result in female characteristics in their bodies? Isn't it also true that females have both the chemicals which result in female characteristics and the chemicals which result in male characteristics in their bodies?
TINNY: That is all true. Because of that, males express both male and female characteristics, and females express both female and male characteristics.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: The degree to which female characteristics are expressed by males, and the degree to which male characteristics are expressed by females varies, doesn't it?
TINNY: That's right. Some males express almost no female characteristics, while others express many female characteristics. Some females express almost no male characteristics, while others express many male characteristics.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Would it be true to say that a male who expressed many female physical characteristics might look quite womanish? And, would it also be true to say that a female who expressed many male physical characteristics might look quite mannish?
TINNY: True, some men look quite feminine, and some women look quite masculine.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Would not men who express many of the physical characteristics of females, and women who express many of the physical characteristics of males be more likely to become homosexuals?
TINNY: That might be true; but, if it is true, it happens for the same kind of reasons overweight people might be more likely to be jolly. No one is born to be homosexual because their body chemistry causes them to develop physical characteristics of the opposite sex. The most feminine looking man can fulfill the male role just as completely as the most masculine looking man. And, the most masculine looking woman can fulfill the female role just as completely as the most feminine looking woman.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Would you explain how a male who inherits a body chemistry which produces feminine physical characteristics might be influenced by his characteristics with the environment to become a homosexual?
TINNY: In such a case the influences might be very simple. As a young boy, parents, other relatives, and friends might make mention of he fact that he looks like a girl. As the boy gets older associates at school might not only mention his girlish looks, but might also infer from this that he is probably a homosexual. The obvious feminine characteristics he sees in himself and others see in him, and the taunts of others who believe he might be homosexual, could lead him to question his masculinity and sexual identity. He might see feminine looking men who are known to be homosexuals, and wonder if he is also homosexual. He might be approached by homosexuals who are attracted to his girlish looks. He might be befriended by an older homosexual who will reinforce his beliefs that he could be a homosexual. That older homosexual friend might tell him some people are born homosexuals, and there is nothing he can do about it. As the boy approaches maturity he may begin associating with homosexuals and find comfort and acceptance within that group. By that time he could easily have become a practicing homosexual, convinced he was born to be a homosexual, and believing homosexuality is an acceptable part of human life. He might meet other young potential homosexuals and recount his experiences to them, thereby influencing them to hold the same beliefs and practice the same behaviours as the homosexual subculture of which he is now a fully fledged member.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: But you say the young boy in this example was not born a homosexual.
TINNY: That's right. If he had not undergone the experiences in his life which conditioned him to believe he was a homosexual, and which led him to believe that homosexuality was an acceptable lifestyle, he would never have become a homosexual.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: So it is not just other homosexuals who are responsible for influencing some boys to become homosexual.
TINNY: No, the responsibility for the existence of homosexuality does not rest only with homosexuals. As in this example, many different people in the boy's life, some of them without intending to do so, contributed to the various influences which conditioned him to become a homosexual.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: I want to be clear on this point. When you say the boy was conditioned to become a homosexual, this is the same as saying he learned to become a homosexual, isn't it?
TINNY: That point can't be stressed too often, since it is so important to our understanding of how human development takes place. All that we become, all that we believe, and all that we do, is learned. Certainly it is most often the case that alcoholics learn to be alcoholics, the mentally ill learn to be mentally ill, homosexuals learn to be homosexuals, and criminals learn to be criminals.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: The same applies to the development of positive lifestyles doesn't it?
TINNY: Certainly. Both negative and positive characteristics are learned. I would go so far as to say that even saints learn to become saints.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: You mentioned that there are attempts to include homosexuals as a group which have long had their civil rights violated. How did this come about?
TINNY: We live in a world undergoing a long needed reassessment of all aspects of human life. It has become recently obvious to most people that certain groups, notably non-white people and women, have long been subjected to unfair treatment. Neither group had been fully afforded the civil rights due all people. Those issues, because of their great importance, have developed in an atmosphere of extreme emotionalism. Seeing the successes of non-white people and women, other groups attempted to use the emotional tide to further their own goals. Homosexuals, a group which has obviously suffered many forms of social injustice, were able to slip their cause in with other groups seeking civil rights.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: How were they able to do that?
TINNY: At times of great emotionalism the quality of critical objective analysis gets overshadowed. Large segments of world society came to accept the cause of the homosexual as part of their own quest for freedom and justice. That acceptance came from emotionalism and misunderstanding, not from logical objective analysis.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: You say that, although wrong, homosexuality is not as terrible as many other wrong behaviours. If that is so, why does it really matter whether or not homosexuality becomes accepted by society?
TINNY: There are many answers to that question. I think the most general answer is that with all the wrongs taking place throughout the world today, some of them widely accepted, the last thing we need do at this point is add to the burden of wrongness which threatens the continued existence of human society. Another answer might be that it is easier to get something wrong accepted as right, than it is to get something accepted as right to be seen as wrong. Once homosexuality gains a sufficient degree of public acceptance, it becomes almost impossible to counter that acceptance in the future.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Might the public have already been conditioned to perceive homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle to a degree which will make it difficult to see the true wrongness of homosexual behaviour?
TINNY: That point of no return is close.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Would you give me one more reason why it is so important homosexuality not be accepted by society?
TINNY: If homosexuals are rewarded for their efforts, which got homosexuality accepted as a legitimate issue of civil rights, then other groups that have never been publicly acceptable will see that success and attempt the same tactic.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Has that happened already?
TINNY: It has, and some groups which are attempting to portray their base desires as being civil rights issues are engaged in beliefs and practices much more harmful to individuals and to society than homosexuality. One of the most harmful issues, that attempts have already been made to gain public acceptance for under the guise of civil rights, concerns those who want sexual relations between adults and children to be legitimised. Some have attempted to call even this quite obvious wrong an issue of children's rights, when in truth their interests are in the gratification of their own selfish desires. Such behaviour has long, and rightly, been considered among the least unacceptable of human behaviours. It is the recent successes of homosexuals, in pushing for the public acceptance of homosexuality, which has heartened those who desire sex with children, and which has resulted in attempts being made to present their so-called cause as another legitimate issue of civil rights.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Isn't there a name for people who desire sexual relations with children?
TINNY: They are commonly called many names that indicate the disdain with which their desires and practices are held by the general public. There is also a scientific name for that condition. Those who desire sexual relationships with children are called paedophiles. I think that is a most inappropriate name for that group.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Why do you think the name, paedophile, is inappropriate?
TINNY: The word paedophile means literally "one who loves children". In a right world that word, paedophile, would mean something very beautiful. Although all people are deserving of love, children because of their special nature should be a particular focus of love. Children are particularly pure, and so the love of children should be particularly pure.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Adults who desire sexual relations with children do not do so because they love and care for children, do they?
TINNY: No, they seek sexual relations with children to satisfy their own physical gratification.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Is it particularly harmful for an adult to have a sexual relationship with a child?
TINNY: When we discussed human sexual behaviour we concluded that sexual relationships, other than between permanently paired men and women, were counter to natural law and stood in the way of our progression toward perfection. All persons, regardless of their age, are harmed by wrong sexual relationships. Children, because of their innocence and vulnerability, are likely to be harmed even more by wrong sexual relationships than adults would be. It is generally true that experiences early in life have a greater long term affect than experiences in later life. Early wrong influences that children experience are expressed in many ways during adulthood. Early positive experiences are also expressed in many ways during adult life. It is of critical importance to the healthy development of children that their early experiences be predominantly positive.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Adults who desire sexual relationships with children have learned those desires, haven't they?
TINNY: Yes, they have. In a sane world the influences would not exist which could condition such harmful desires.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: I agree, of course, that sexual behaviour should not be part of any relationship between adult and child; but, you also say that adults should be very loving in their relationships with children. What limits should there be to the expression of love between adults and children?
TINNY: All forms of love's expression should be acceptable between all people, with the one exception, that the sexual aspect of human relationships should be kept exclusively within the bond of permanently paired men and women.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: That allows a great deal of love to be expressed in the world.
TINNY: A great deal of love is needed to bring sanity to human society.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: There never can be too much love, can there?
TINNY: True love is inexhaustible in its expression and its benefits. That world of love is my greatest desire.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: It can be yours.
TINNY: I will work hard to help bring that beautiful future into reality.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: We had better go on with our discussion then. We only spoke briefly about mental illness. You say all the wrong human beliefs and behaviours we have been discussing occur because society is mentally ill. You also say that this mental illness, which affects every person on the planet, is the result of failure to understand the true nature of our reality. As we consider the various problems presently facing humanity it becomes increasingly clear this very inclusive understanding of mental illness, which comes from the new worldview, is correct. This is a much more comprehensive view of mental illness than the way that mental illness has been understood in the past. Do you think there would be any benefit in discussing some of the more traditional views of mental illness?
TINNY: I think analysing the old worldview is always helpful in better understanding the new worldview. Just as all other things envolve from the simple to the more complex, the worldview commonly held by the human race has been undergoing progressive development towards a better understanding of reality. The traditional beliefs about mental illness form the basis of this new knowledge of mental illness. The better the old is understood, the better the new can be known.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Even in the traditional meaning, mental illness is a very broad concept. Could you give a definition which includes all forms of mental illness?
TINNY: There is no short and simple definition to mental illness which is truly adequate. There have been a number of classification systems which define the many different types of human behaviour and thinking which are considered to be forms of mental illness. Some of these classification systems might define a hundred or more different types of mental illness.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Is it very useful to have such a detailed classification system for mental illness?
TINNY: I don't consider it very useful. That method of classification leads to the belief that each of the listed categories of mental illness is truly separate from the others. If each one is a separate form of mental illness then it would also be likely that there are specific origins and cures for each.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: It would seem those assumptions could be of value in the understanding and treatment of mental illness.
TINNY: They might be valuable if they were correct, but they are based on an incorrect understanding of the basic nature of human illness.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: What is the nature of that misunderstanding?
TINNY: It is not correct to think that there are many different types of mental illness. Virtually all mental illness is of one type. That one basic type manifests itself in many different ways. There is one set of laws which govern the development of virtually all mental illness, and one form of treatment which provides the best hope of recovery from the varied expressions of mental illness.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: How did people come to believe there were many different types of mental illness?
TINNY: If one were to view the behaviours associated with the different expressions of mental illness they would appear to have no common factor. It is probably that fact which resulted in the widely held belief that there are many different types of mental illness. Different patterns of physical and verbal behaviour were observed to fall into a number of recognisable classes. The general pattern of behaviour which makes up each different class was then labeled as a separate mental illness. There is also another factor which resulted in the belief that there were a number of different types of mental illness. Even the name, mental illness, is related to the influence of that same factor. Long before problems of the mind became the subject of study, problems of the body occupied the healers of society. Diseases of the body often had symptoms distinctly different from each other. The various diseases also often had different origins and different cures. When attempts were first made to understand the problems of the mind, the medical model, which had been developed to understand the problems of the body, seemed to apply equally well to the problems of the mind. Problems of the mind were seen as an illness, the cause of the problems of the mind was thought to be a disease, and the methods of treating problems of the mind were of the same type as those used to treat physical ailments. Those who suffered problems of the mind were believed to be sick and were treated by medical practitioners as patients, who had no more responsibility for overcoming their condition than someone being treated for a broken leg.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Was there much success in the treatment of mental illness in the past?
TINNY: Since the problems of the mind were not well understood there was little success in the treatment of mental illness.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: What was actually considered to be the cause of mental illness?
TINNY: Sometimes the mentally ill person was thought to have diseased fluids within the body. In those cases the patient was usually bled or purged. At other times the mentally ill person was thought to be possessed by evil spirits. In those cases, which were often the more severe expressions of problems of the mind, the mentally ill person underwent exorcism, which is a religious ritual to drive the evil spirits out of the person believed to be possessed. Those people suffering severe mental problems were often beaten, drowned, and burned in an attempt to make the body so unpleasant an abode that the demons would leave.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: It sounds like the treatment could sometimes have been more harmful than the mental illness itself.
TINNY: Many people already suffering the anguish of mental illness have died during what was claimed to be treatment.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: It must have been long ago that such horrors took place.
TINNY: There have been instances of mentally ill people being equally mistreated during the 20th century. There are still mentally ill people dying while undergoing what is claimed to be treatment in today's world. The nature, the origins, and the cure of mental illness are still poorly understood. In a world society so sick as ours, where in the true sense we all are suffering from mental illness, it is only to be expected that the understanding and treatment of problems of the mind would be notably less than adequate.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Why is it so hard to understand the true nature of mental illness?
TINNY: So little is known even about the normal functions of the mind that there has been little basis to understand the mind when it goes wrong.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Would you briefly describe some of the ways problems of the mind are expressed?
TINNY: I'll start by explaining mental illness as it has recently been understood. Very broadly, mental illness was thought to fall into two main categories. These are neuroses and psychoses. Of the two, neuroses are usually the less severe, while the psychoses include the more major expressions of mental illness.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: First, will you give a more complete definition of neuroses, and then provide some examples?
TINNY: There are a wide range of behaviours and thought patterns which are considered to be neuroses. Basically they include thoughts and behaviours which stand in the way of happiness, calmness, satisfaction, and social/personal effectiveness. Neuroses are expressed in a variety of ways such as exaggerated character traits, changes in mood, compulsions, preoccupations, or unreasonable fears. Such thoughts and behaviours often have some defensive intent, but are almost invariably self-defeating. Also, people experiencing problems of this type are most often unaware of the nature of their difficulties.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Do you mean people who are expressing neurotic difficulties don't know they have a problem?
TINNY: No, it is often quite obvious to the person involved, as well as others, that they are experiencing some problem; but, people seldom understand why they have a problem, the nature of the problem, and are most often unable to resolve the problem without help.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: I'm sure I'll understand the nature of neuroses better after I hear some examples.
TINNY: A common neurosis is the general anxiety reaction. A person suffering from general anxiety reaction will experience a distress or uneasiness of mind due to a non-specific fear of danger or misfortune. That uneasy mental state will often be accompanied by physical symptoms such as sweating or an increased heart rate.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: The neurotic anxiety reaction is like being scared with no reason. That would be a very uncomfortable feeling.
TINNY: That's right. Since there is no real basis for the fear, there is no way to deal with the object of fear.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Does that anxiety state go on continuously?
TINNY: The expression of neuroses falls on a continuum like all other things. The range would extend from virtually never feeling general anxiety to almost constantly feeling that general anxiety. Most people would at some time or other experience such a feeling, so in that case it would be considered normal. Those who experience a general anxiety reaction to a degree that it seriously interferes with their life are considered to be suffering a neurosis.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: So it depends on how often that anxiety state is experienced as to whether or not the person involved is considered normal or neurotic.
TINNY: It also depends on how severely the anxiety is felt. If quite mild it would more likely be accepted as normal, and if it is very intense it would more likely neurotic.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Still, it seems that the neurotic experience is actually an extension of the normal experience.
TINNY: That is invariably the case, and this fact will be important when we discuss the origins of all mental illness.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Tell me about another form of neurosis.
TINNY: Phobias are a very common expression of neurosis. A phobia is a specific fear which is way out of proportion to the thing feared. It is an obsessively persistent, unrealistic fear, which is inappropriate to the situation.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: There are a number of well known phobias, but are there many others not so well known?
TINNY: Theoretically the list of phobias would be as long as the list of all things which exist, since anything may serve as the stimulus for a phobic reaction. Very common phobias include claustrophobia, the fear of closed places; acrophobia, the fear of heights; and ophidiophobia, the fear of snakes.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Most people fear some things more than others. Some things people fear, such as snakes, can be harmful.
TINNY: Phobias include both harmful and harmless objects of fear. It isn't the fear which makes a phobia, as phobias only include fear beyond that which is normal for the situation. A person unfamiliar with snakes might have what is called a valid fear or healthy respect for snakes. That might keep the person from indiscriminately handling snakes, some of which might be poison. An unreasonable fear might be expressed by a person who screams, cries, and becomes hysterical in the presence of a snake.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Once again the phobic reactions seem to be extensions of the normal experience.
TINNY: I think phobias would be a good expression of mental illness to explore further. Some of the factors effecting the development and treatment of phobias, which are a relatively simple form of mental illness, also have importance to the development and treatment of mental illness in general. By understanding the simple we will be better able to understand the complex.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: If, as you say, there is one set of laws which govern the development of all mental illness, and one form of treatment which can be used successfully with all mental illness, then we can learn much about all mental illness by coming to understand phobias. Would you like me to ask questions about phobias in an attempt to draw out that knowledge?
TINNY: Yes, please. I really enjoy trying to answer your questions. Sometimes it seems I learn as much answering questions as by asking them.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: I guess the obvious question is, how do phobias develop?
TINNY: Both the mental and physical expressions of phobic reaction are learned. People who have phobias learn the thoughts and feelings of fear which they experience, and learn ways to express that fear with bodily reactions.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: When you say the mental and physical expressions of a phobia are learned, do you mean they are conditioned according to the laws of learning we have discussed in some detail?
TINNY: Every aspect of the phobic experience is conditioned by those same basic learning principles.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Does that mean the development of all the different types of phobia went through the same process of development?
TINNY: Not at all. The process of development would be different for each phobia. In fact, the process of development of the same phobia by any two people would be different. Each person who develops a phobia will have undergone a process of development different from all others. No two phobias will ever be identically developed. The laws which govern the development never vary, but the experiences which are governed by those laws are always unique.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: To effectively treat a phobia is it necessary to know the unique process of development by which that phobia was learned?
TINNY: The circumstances surrounding the development of any phobia will be much too complex to be fully known. Many of the experiences which had an impact on the development of the phobia would not have been obviously connected with the development of the phobia. While it is always helpful in curing a phobia to know as many of the circumstances of its development as possible, luckily it is possible to successfully cure a phobia while knowing little of the specifics of its development.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: How can you treat a person suffering from a phobia if you don't know how it developed?
TINNY: Every aspect of the expression of a phobia is a behaviour. Some of those behaviours may be physical, some verbal, and some mental. That group of behaviours which make up the phobia are all subject to the laws of learning. All of those behaviours were learned, and all can be unlearned. As with any behaviour you attempt to alter, you begin with the baseline behaviour and organise experiences which will reinforce the movement of behaviour away from the baseline toward some goal. The baseline behaviour in the case of a phobia is the present state of all physical, verbal, and mental responses to the object of the irrational fear. The goal is to bring all aspects of the phobic response into a normal range, which would no longer cause difficulties or excessive discomfort.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: So the basis of treatment of a phobia is identical to the procedures you used to teach a chicken to turn in a circle while standing on one leg.
TINNY: That is the essence of all behaviour change, be it with animals or people, and regardless of the complexity of the behaviour involved.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: That is remarkable. It seems everything one might desire to teach or learn can be achieved by one method which includes a small number of very specific laws.
TINNY: That is the great benefit offered by the laws of learning. Those learning principles offer an objective approach to all learning and behaviour change.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Do you know of any specific examples of people with phobias being treated by that method?
TINNY: I read a very detailed account of a thirteen year old girl named Lynn who had a phobia about blood or anything to do with internal organs. She couldn't even tolerate hearing talk about the subject. She used to feel nervous and faint when confronted by any of these. In school sometimes boys would talk about blood or internal organs in front of her just to tease her and make her feel uncomfortable. She couldn't even look at the outline drawings of the blood's circulatory system in her biology book without feeling upset.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Does that type of phobia have a name?
TINNY: It probably has a technical name, but I don't know what it is. In the article the psychologist just referred to it as a blood and gore phobia.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: So the girl was treated for her phobic reaction by a psychologist.
TINNY: Yes, he was an intern in clinical psychology.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Does that mean he was still a student?
TINNY: Yes, he was an advanced doctoral student.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: That could mean he was not very experienced in helping someone overcome a phobia.
TINNY: It said in the article that this was the first time he had ever tried to help someone overcome a phobia.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: How did the psychologist know what to do to get rid of the phobia?
TINNY: He seemed to have an excellent knowledge of the laws of learning, and a very broad understanding of the effect of conditioning on the total development of the person.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: I suppose he was successful in getting rid of the girl's phobia.
TINNY: The psychologist did not get rid of Lynn's phobia. She got rid of her own phobia. There is no other way to mental health than to achieve that healthy state by self-effort.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: If it is self-effort which is necessary to achieve a healthy mind, why was Lynn treated by a psychologist?
TINNY: A psychologist does not heal an injured mind the way a physician heals a broken leg. A psychologist aids the person with a problem of the mind by providing them with means to overcome their own difficulties.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: How does the psychologist do this? What does the psychologist give to a person which can aid them to overcome their own mental problems?
TINNY: Each person and each problem is different, so in each case the psychologist provides something different.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: If you could describe how Lynn and the psychologist worked together to overcome her phobia, the specifics of that individual case might be representative of the way psychologists could generally aid those seeking assistance in their struggle to overcome problems of the mind.
TINNY: That's true, so it will be important that I explain the specifics of Lynn's case in great detail.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Why don't you tell me all you remember about that case.
TINNY: As soon as Lynn entered the psychologist's office, he could see she was nervous. Believing that such anxiety should be dealt with immediately, before it interfered with the all important relationship which must develop during their meetings, he attempted to put her at ease. He was a causally dressed fellow, and tried to make these meetings both informal and pleasant. He told her she appeared to be a bit nervous and she agreed. He asked her why she felt nervous and she said it was because she didn't know what to expect. The psychologist explained that seeing him was not like seeing a medical doctor, there was no examination or treatment which might be painful. He told Lynn she could talk to him just like she would to her friends. That he hoped as they got to know each other they would really become friends. He assured her that no matter what was discussed it would be only between them. He said meetings like these could actually be interesting and fun, so she could just relax and enjoy herself. Lynn could see the psychologist was sincere about all that he said.
She began to feel more comfortable, and even look forward to the experience which she was dreading just a few minutes earlier. The psychologist asked Lynn to tell him how upset she felt every time she saw or heard anything having to do with blood, the circulatory system, or internal organs. She said she had felt so upset when the subject of blood or internal organs was raised that several times during a biology class at school she fainted and had to be taken to the school nurse. Boys at her school knew how upset she got over those things she feared, so they talked about blood and guts subjects in front of her, causing great discomfort. Even if she didn't faint Lynn would get tense, her heart rate would go way up, and she would get sweaty palms. It was making her school life a very uncomfortable time. The psychologist saw, in this description of what happened to Lynn at school, that her phobic response might possibly be due to reinforcement from the attention she received from boys and others because of her phobic behaviour; or, alternatively, that it could be used as a way to escape from the school situation.
But, he also realised, it might have nothing at all to do with those circumstances. Without asking directly, he questioned Lynn to determine if either of those situations was a controlling factor in the development of her phobia. From the answers she gave it didn't seem like either of those factors was providing the reinforcement which had conditioned, and was maintaining, the phobic response. He asked if anyone else in her family had a similar fear. Lynn said her mother had similar feelings about blood and internal organs, only her mother didn't react so severely. On finding out this information, the psychologist made the tentative hypothesis that Lynn had first learned her phobic reaction by modelling her mother's reactions. In Lynn's case, the already somewhat excessive reaction to blood and internal organ, which she learned from her mother, was shaped toward even more intense expression. So severe had her response to blood and internal organs become that it was clear she had developed a true phobic reaction which was interfering with her life.
At this point the psychologist began to discuss with Lynn the process by which she could overcome her phobic reactions. The process he described to her is sometimes called systematic desensitisation. It is called that because the process involves an objective and systematic approach to the removal of the ability the phobic stimulus has to elicit a fear response. During that process the phobic person becomes less sensitive to whatever it was which had previously brought about the phobic reaction.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Is systematic desensitisation a very complex process?
TINNY: It is complex in that the procedure involves a number of different elements which must interact in a subtle and intricate manner.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Would you describe some of the different elements contained in the systematic desensitisation procedure?
TINNY: As with all processes of behaviour change, it is necessary to develop an objective baseline. That objective baseline gives an assessment of the present circumstances of the behaviour to be changed.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Why is it important to know the present circumstances surrounding the behaviour to be changed?
TINNY: All behaviour changes take place through shaping. To effectively shape behaviour it is necessary to know where to begin. The place to begin is always at the present state of the behaviour, which is known through the objective baseline.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Are there any other reasons why the objective baseline is important?
TINNY: When attempting to shape behaviour in the direction of some desired goal it is necessary to have an ongoing assessment of progress. The objective baseline provides a standard by which to measure the degree of success which has been achieved at any point during the shaping process.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: I can see the value of an objective baseline, but isn't it difficult to determine what the circumstances are surrounding some behaviours?
TINNY: Sometimes it is very difficult to arrive at an objective baseline.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: As example, how in the world can you objectively assess a phobic reaction, such as Lynn's blood and gore phobia? It seems, due to the very nature of the phobic response, that the experience must be subjective. Only the person experiencing the phobia can truly know how it feels. It is hard to think of feelings as responses, much less to believe they can be objectively assessed.
TINNY: Once again we see the benefits of an approach to behaviour change based on the laws of learning. Integral to this methodology is the quantification of behavioural manifestations. Some behaviours lend themselves to objective analysis more easily than others; but, all behaviour is subject to some form of objective analysis and quantification.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Some of your terminology is getting a bit hard to understand.
TINNY: Sorry. All I really mean is that it is possible to consider all responses in an objective way, which clearly spells out their make-up; and, that they can be assigned specific values to eliminate any vagueness. Perhaps even that is hard to understand without an example.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: It is.
TINNY: I'll use Lynn's blood and gore phobia as an example. If someone says they become very upset when seeing or hearing anything to do with blood or internal organs that is easily specific enough for general conversation. Few would have any difficulty understanding the general implications of that statement. Such a statement, though, has little value as a basis for initiating a programme of behavioural intervention. A behaviourally oriented therapist would need to know quite specifically which stimuli elicit the phobic reaction. It would also be important to be able to place those phobic stimuli on a graded continuum from most severe to least severe. It will become clear why that is necessary as we discuss other elements of systematic desensitisation. Once the stimuli which elicit the phobic reaction are ordered in that hierarchical manner, numbers can be assigned to each stimulus representing its relative position on the graded continuum. The stimuli which elicit the most severe phobic reaction getting the highest numerical values, and the stimuli which elicit lesser phobic reactions being assigned lower numerical values.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: That example was a bit general. Would you explain the specifics of that objective analysis, and the method of quantification, in regard to the blood and gore phobia we have been discussing?
TINNY: There are three parts to that process - a list of stimuli which elicit the phobic response; placement of those phobic stimuli on a graded continuum; and, the assigning of numerical values to the graded phobic stimuli. Stimuli which elicited the phobic reaction in Lynn's case were - discussion of veins and arteries; discussion of internal organs; black and white line diagrams of veins and arteries; real pictures of veins and arteries; real pictures of internal organs; line diagrams of veins and arteries coloured blue and red; coloured plastic transparencies of veins and arteries; and coloured plastic transparencies of internal organs.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Were those all of the different stimuli that elicited the phobic reaction?
TINNY: No, but those are sufficient to use in this example. Next the psychologist got Lynn to place those stimuli in the order of their emotional impact. He asked her first to tell him which of the stimuli she responded most strongly to. She said she was most affected, equally, by the real pictures of veins and arteries and the plastic transparencies of veins and arteries. Second in impact were the real pictures of internal organs. Then in decreasing order: discussion of veins and arteries; coloured transparencies of internal organs; line diagrams of veins and arteries coloured red and blue; discussion of internal organs; and, black and white diagrams of veins and arteries.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Some of the positions of phobic stimuli in that hierarchy were where I would have expected, and some were not.
TINNY: That is part of the reason it is necessary to specifically and objectively determine the nature of the conditions affecting the phobic response. Each person's phobic reaction is unique. The psychologist needed to know how the person with the phobia feels about the eliciting stimuli, not how he himself felt about the relative significance of the phobic stimuli.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: How were numerical values assigned to those various phobic stimuli?
TINNY: A scale of zero to one hundred was used in this instance. Sometimes a scale of zero to ten is used; but in this case, it was felt that the larger scale offered the opportunity to make finer assessments of change. The stimulus which elicited the greatest phobic reaction was assigned the numerical value of one hundred. The state of greatest calm which the phobic person ever experiences is assigned the zero position on the scale. Now, with the upper and lower limits of the anxiety range decided upon, the other phobic stimuli are assigned numerical values within that range. In this case the following numerical values were assigned to the phobic stimuli - real pictures of veins and arteries, and coloured transparencies of veins and arteries rated one hundred; real pictures of internal organs rated ninety five; discussions of veins and arteries rated ninety; coloured transparencies of internal organs rated eighty five; line diagrams of veins and arteries coloured red and blue rated eighty; discussions of internal organs rated sixty; and black and white line diagrams of veins and arteries rated forty.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Was Lynn just asked how upset she remembered feeling when in the presence of those various stimuli which could elicit a phobic reaction?
TINNY: No, the psychologist gathered materials which contained the various phobic stimuli, presented them to Lynn, and asked her to assess her response to them on the agreed upon numerical scale.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: If those stimuli elicited the phobic reaction, how could she look at or talk about them without feeling anxious and upset?
TINNY: She couldn't. The psychologist knew that would be the case, so he told Lynn to let him know as soon as she began to feel too uncomfortable to continue. She had to do this several times during the assessment procedure.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Couldn't confronting the phobic person with the things which brought about their phobic reaction during the period of assessment cause some harm?
TINNY: Not if done carefully; and, in this case the psychologist took great care to be aware of Lynn's discomfort. If she had told him that she reacted so severely to one of the items which elicited the phobic reaction that it would cause her to run screaming into a wall, he would not have confronted her with that phobic item so early in the treatment process. As it was, the psychologist used that assessment and quantification period to observe Lynn's verbal and physiological reaction to the various stimuli capable of eliciting the phobic response. He also used that assessment period to introduce another element of the desensitisation process, the relaxation procedure.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: How many elements are there to the systematic desensitisation process?
TINNY: Basically there are three elements specific to systematic desensitisation. There is the assessment and quantification of the phobic reaction. There is the introduction of a relaxation procedure. And there is a pairing of those first two elements.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Will every process of systematic desensitisation contain those same three elements?
TINNY: Nothing I ever tell you should be taken as the final, unalterable position on any issue. There is variation in all things, including any individual's perception of truth. I could well imagine the laws of learning being used in vastly different ways to attain the same end, in this instance the elimination of a phobic reaction.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: So often I feel I want an absolute answer. I know that is also the case with many people.
TINNY: But you know that is not possible. The nature of the material plane of existence precludes absolute answers.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Sometimes feelings run counter to knowledge. I accept, though, the purpose of all you say is to approach absolute truth, I do not dismay that it is not yet time to reach that final truth.
TINNY: If anyone accepted my words as absolute truth they would have their freewill curtailed. The best I can hope is that my words will be a positive influence alongside all the other positive influences which exist along the path to absolute truth.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Tell me about the relaxation procedure which was the second element in the treatment of phobias we have been discussing.
TINNY: As part of the assessment and quantification process it was necessary to determine the situation in Lynn's life when she felt most calm. She said that when she was in her bed at night, warm under the covers, with the lights out and music playing on the radio she experienced the greatest calm she ever felt. The psychologist wanted to know that information not only to assign a zero point on the scale of anxiety, but also to use that image when introducing the relaxation procedure. The psychologist discussed with Lynn some of the changes which take place in the mind and body when anxiety occurs. The heart rate increases, breathing becomes more rapid, nervous perspiration occurs, and worrying thoughts race through the mind. He told Lynn that she had the potential to overcome those physical and mental symptoms of anxiety, and that he would teach her how to use that ability.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: How did he teach her to overcome the physiological and mental signs of anxiety?
TINNY: First, he went through a relaxation exercise with her, which enables a person to relax different muscle groups independently. This involves starting with the muscles in the feet, tensing the foot muscles, holding that contracted muscle while focusing the mind on the discomfort, then totally relaxing the foot muscles and focusing the mind on how good the muscles feel. The same tensing and relaxing of muscles takes place in the major muscle groups progressing toward the muscles of the head and neck. After tensing and relaxing the foot muscles next to be done would be the calf muscles, thigh muscles, buttocks muscles, stomach muscles, chest muscles, hand muscles, forearm muscles, upper arm muscles, shoulder muscles, jaw muscles, eye muscles, and skull muscles. As each of those muscle groups is being held tense, the mind is focused on the feeling of discomfort this tension brings; and, as each of those groups is fully relaxed the mind is focused on how good it feels to be relaxed. The purpose of this exercise is to increase awareness of the contrast between tense muscles and relaxed muscles; between the discomfort of anxiety and the comfort of relaxation.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Why is it important to be aware of those differences between the tense condition and the relaxed condition?
TINNY: As a person becomes less fearful of previously phobic objects it is important to have as many well understood signs of that lessened anxiety state as possible. The differences between the discomfort of tension and the comfort of relaxation provide an objective measure of change due to lessened anxiety. As the person who had experienced phobic reactions become less fearful, the perception of objective effects of that lessened fear act as reinforcing stimuli which result in further decreased feelings of fear toward the phobic object or situation.
PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST: Would you specify the different aspects of learning principles which are active in that change process.
TINNY: The baseline response is the initial fear reaction to the phobic stimulus. The goal response is to be able to express a relatively calm reaction to the phobic stimulus. The conditioning process involves shaping the initial fear reaction into the pattern of a relaxation response. At any stage in that shaping process the degree of the fear reaction is the response subject to conditioning through reinforcement. Each presentation of the phobic stimulus serves as a discriminative stimulus. This simply means that the presentation of the phobic stimulus allows the opportunity to respond with lessened fear, and receive reinforcement from the experience by the realisation of that lessened fear.
